Ranking in Forbes Top 50 for 5 years with Rich Rosen
Welcome to The Success Code w/ Ben Silverman, hosted by entrepreneur, founder, Mr. USA, National Taekwondo Champion, and content creator Benjamin Silverman. The principal focus of today’s discussion revolves around the methodologies and experiences that have contributed to remarkable success in the realm of recruitment, particularly within the software sales sector. We are joined by Rich Rosen, a distinguished recruiter, who has achieved considerable acclaim, being recognized as one of the top recruiters in the country by Forbes.
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- Learn more about Rich and his services at cornerstonesearch.com
Throughout our conversation, we delve into Rich's extensive background, which includes a diverse array of professional experiences ranging from stockbroking to recruitment, and culminates in his current endeavors in building elite sales teams for burgeoning software companies. Rich elucidates the significance of maintaining a robust work ethic, the vital role of communication in sales, and the necessity of cultivating genuine relationships within the industry. Ultimately, we aim to provide insights that not only illuminate the intricacies of recruitment but also inspire listeners to cultivate their own paths to success.
Rich Rosen's journey into the recruitment industry is a testament to resilience and strategic thinking, as he shares his remarkable experiences in a candid and engaging dialogue. His ascent from being the youngest stockbroker to becoming a celebrated recruiter in SaaS sales exemplifies the intersection of opportunity and hard work. He discusses the foundational principles that have guided his career, including the significance of relationship-building and the relentless pursuit of excellence. Through his narrative, listeners gain insights into the complexities of the recruitment process, particularly in the competitive landscape of technology sales, where understanding both client and candidate needs is paramount.
The episode further explores the misconceptions surrounding the recruitment profession, as Rosen challenges the stereotypes that often plague the industry. He emphasizes the necessity of authenticity and ethical practices in recruitment, arguing that the profession should be viewed as a vital partner in business success rather than merely a transactional service. This perspective invites listeners to reevaluate their understanding of recruitment, highlighting the profound impact that skilled recruiters can have on organizational growth and culture. Rosen's candid reflections on his career journey serve as a powerful reminder of the importance of integrity and dedication in achieving lasting success.
In conclusion, this episode serves not only as a personal account of Rosen's career but also as a broader commentary on the recruitment industry. His insights provide a roadmap for aspiring recruiters and business leaders, encouraging them to cultivate meaningful relationships and adopt a proactive approach to their work. Through his experiences, listeners are inspired to embrace the challenges of their professions with tenacity and a commitment to ethical practice, ultimately leading to a more successful and fulfilling career.
Takeaways:
- The podcast delves into the intricate journey of a successful recruiter, highlighting their extensive experience in various industries.
- Listeners are introduced to the concept of financial freedom, as the speaker emphasizes its significance in achieving overall happiness.
- The discussion underscores the importance of direct communication in recruitment, contrasting it with the inefficacy of relying solely on emails.
- A critical analysis of the recruitment industry reveals prevalent misconceptions about the ease of the profession and the necessary work ethic.
- The episode emphasizes that developing relationships within one's industry is crucial for success, advocating for proactive engagement and contribution.
- Key strategies for effective sales calls are shared, illustrating how persistence and clarity can lead to better outcomes in recruitment.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcript
So tell me about yourself.
Speaker A:I don't even chance to look you up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's your story?
Speaker B:So let's see, where do I start?
Speaker B:So basically my.
Speaker B:My own personal story is I lived in Japan, China and Korea for the past.
Speaker B:In 17 years.
Speaker B:Last year, I moved back to the States, and while I was there, I did a lot of stuff.
Speaker B:I was a professional fighter for eight years.
Speaker B:I was the national in Japan.
Speaker B:I recruited for a good five or six years for, like, industrial renewable energy.
Speaker B:Did finance recruiting for a bit as well.
Speaker B:Got into B2B sales, worked for the Economist for a bit, started my own company in fitness and performance coaching.
Speaker B:Sales training.
Speaker B:Sales coaching and what else?
Speaker B:Yeah, and that, that's like.
Speaker B:That's like the.
Speaker B:The mini version.
Speaker B:We're like, you know what, why don't we do a podcast?
Speaker B:Let's talk about success and business.
Speaker B:Personal stories, case studies, and, like, meet a bunch of really cool people.
Speaker B:Give them a chance to talk about what they do in front of our audience and give us and, you know, have a ch.
Speaker B:Chance for us to get what we do in front of other people and then just kind of like mutually beneficial and have a lot of fun at the same time.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:That's what the podcasts are great for that, man.
Speaker A:It's a lot of fun.
Speaker A:It does all the right things.
Speaker A:It's a door opener.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do the same.
Speaker A:That's what I was started to do mine for, too.
Speaker A:It's a door opener.
Speaker B:And it's like, so little trust on the Internet now.
Speaker B:It's like, if someone reached out to me and was like, hey, I'm going to teach you how to close better and make more deals.
Speaker B:I'd be like, yeah, you're full of it.
Speaker A:Whatever, you know, it's like, absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, let's, let's.
Speaker B:Let's jump into it.
Speaker A:Perfect.
Speaker B:All right, so on today's episode of the Success Code, the podcast where we crack the secrets to achieving greatness in business and in life, join us as we dive into the strategies, habits, and pivotal moments that have helped some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs and leaders reach the top of what they consider the top.
Speaker B:Whether you're scaling your business, chasing your dreams, or just building your legacy, we hope that this will be your playbook for unstoppable growth and happiness.
Speaker B:So let's jump into it and decode success.
Speaker B:Today's episode is brought to you by Peak Performance Fitness, the ultimate transformation program for busy businessmen, leaders, and entrepreneurs.
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Speaker B:Because true success starts with you.
Speaker B:At least we believe though today we've got a really, really cool guest.
Speaker B:Rich Rosin.
Speaker B:Am I pronouncing Rosen?
Speaker B:Rosin.
Speaker A:Rosen.
Speaker A:Close.
Speaker A:Rosen.
Speaker A:Rosen.
Speaker B:Rosen.
Speaker B:Rich Rosen.
Speaker B:Maybe I'll just let you tell us, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker B:I know that you've done some really big numbers in the industry and hit some top charts for recruitment so I'd.
Speaker A:Love to hear you.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah I, so I for I've gone on what am I 29th year of recruiting for SaaS sales guys S a a s software as a service SaaS, sales sales reps for startup software companies, sales reps executives really all go to market folks, account managers, pre sales and helped build some of the you know really preeminent companies in the last you know, 30 years from the tableaus and app of the world to you know probably half of Adobe is made up of clients that I you know companies we helped build that they acquired.
Speaker A:You know so all the startups and been God been on Forbes list for the last five years you know as one of the top recruiters in the country actually top recruiting firms in the country but my firm is just me so I've been as high as voted by clients as high as number 11 on that list so which I thought was a pretty great honor for a solo recruiter out of 38,000 firms and yeah man, I mean that's it.
Speaker A:We just I you know got a great focus on how to help companies and sales leaders, you know build the best teams possible and you know get them their top, top achievers.
Speaker B:That's, that's really cool.
Speaker B:And, and as someone who has recruited before I, I understand actually how difficult it is to get on Forbes tops list of recruiting firms in the top 50 as essentially you said you're by yourself just you it's literally I don't.
Speaker A:Even have an admin anymore.
Speaker A:It's just me.
Speaker B:That's crazy.
Speaker A:So yeah it was, it was funny A couple years I've been as they cheap chained the list a Little bit.
Speaker A:But I made the top 50 every year.
Speaker A:One year I was number 11.
Speaker A:Everyone above me had about 70 recruiters in their firms.
Speaker A:So I do a good job.
Speaker A:We take on.
Speaker A:I take on companies that make sense, that want a partner and, you know, want actually someone to really, you know, have their back and help them grow and not just, you know, shoot, you know, lousy resumes over to them.
Speaker A:So that makes a difference.
Speaker B:That's, That's a lot.
Speaker B:And I think one of the things that a lot of people misunderstand about recruitment, they think it's easy money.
Speaker B:It's really not.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker B:Those are big.
Speaker B:But one thing that I've always loved about recruitment is the fact that I think it's probably one of the highest earning potential careers in the world.
Speaker B:That requires absolutely no specific background other than just being like a good communicator and a hard worker.
Speaker A:You know, don't give up, man.
Speaker A:Don't.
Speaker A:Don't give up those secrets.
Speaker B:That being said, that means I did it for five years and I did a very good job, relatively.
Speaker B:I was doing it in Japan, but I have a sales background.
Speaker B:What you've accomplished is on a different level.
Speaker B:Could you share a little bit, like, what is your story?
Speaker A:How.
Speaker B:What was the, the, the transition of events that led you to being in the, to number 11 on the Forbes list for recruitment?
Speaker A:So I was, I was actually the youngest stockbroker in the country at one point when I was in college.
Speaker A:I actually got my, my license as a broker while I was still in school.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So it was great.
Speaker A:I was working with this guy, had about seven people doing different jobs from.
Speaker A:I was picking all his stocks and managing like $150 million when I was, you know, 20 years old for this guy and telling him, hey, buy this, buy that and crush the market.
Speaker A:I've been investing since I was like 15 and learned a lot.
Speaker A:And, you know, that doing that job, I would start calling sales guys instead of, you know, I was a finance manager.
Speaker A:I started calling sales guys at these companies to really get the dirt on what's going on at the company.
Speaker A:Finance guys can, you know, they play with the numbers, but the sales guys, usually I can tell who's bullshitting, who's not, and what the real story was.
Speaker A:And it just got really real.
Speaker A:And you could just combine that information with the charts and with the finance folks.
Speaker A:And, man, I was cranking.
Speaker A:I mean, it was like a 28% return.
Speaker A:It was phenomenal.
Speaker A:Anyway, long story short, that guy went crazy, which is A great story over a beer someday.
Speaker A:Went up to Boston, worked for this other guy as a broker on my own.
Speaker A:But I always had to do this rookie program.
Speaker A:So I'm like, whatever, I'll took it in the pants and fine, I'll take six.
Speaker A:It was like a $6 rookie program.
Speaker A:It was literally the least amount of money I've ever made in my life.
Speaker A:But did it for six months, brought in a million bucks in assets.
Speaker A:The guy wouldn't let me go on my own.
Speaker A:I literally, at 22, said, Go fuck yourself.
Speaker A:I'm not going to make any more money, so either I'm leaving or give me a desk.
Speaker A:And he's like, I guess you're leaving.
Speaker A:I'm like, I guess so.
Speaker A:So I left.
Speaker A:So started doing recruiting two weeks later at MRI in Boston.
Speaker A:Closed two deals, made $40,000 at, you know, all of 22 or 23, whatever I was at this point.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, this is absolutely easy and amazing.
Speaker A:So was the top, you know, pretty much the number one recruiter MRI out of about 77 recruiters every month for about six months.
Speaker A:And then left one on my own.
Speaker A:That's so.
Speaker A:Been on my own now for 29 years, I think.
Speaker B:So pretty direct path to launching your own business.
Speaker B:Tell me, what do you think allowed you to be so successful pre launching your own business?
Speaker B:Like what.
Speaker B:What was.
Speaker B:What was your secret sauce?
Speaker B:Because I've a lot of recruiters who failed horribly and they failed.
Speaker B:They failed far.
Speaker A:It's about a 10% success rate, and success is, you know, I'm not even sure I'd give it a 10% success rate because what some people consider success, I think it's a, you know, would be a bad month, you know, but the, you know, I think the end of the day is when I was a stockbroker, you just pound the phones.
Speaker A:I mean, it was making 150 calls, you know, a day at a minimum.
Speaker A:You went to MRI, they're like, all right, make 50 calls today.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, what the hell do you do after breakfast?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:And, you know, so I just cranked on the phone.
Speaker A:I just had really no fear of the phone and just picked up the phone and, you know, called, called, called.
Speaker A:And I think it's a lost art today, all these recruiters that rely on all these.
Speaker A:I don't care what you're selling, if you're relying on email, you're dead in the water.
Speaker A:You know, emails.
Speaker A:90% of emails end up in spam anyway, now, so no one sees them.
Speaker A:I mean, you got to send literally a hundred thousand emails out and you may get, you know, 10 responses.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:The numbers are all time lows.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm still an old school phone recruiter.
Speaker A:I love picking up the phone, making a cold call and see what happens.
Speaker A:You know, I do my emails, do my marketing, do my text, do everything, but the phone's the king.
Speaker A:And I just crammed on the phone.
Speaker A:I'm like, what do I have to, you know, I'm like, what's the downside?
Speaker A:They're going to hang up on me.
Speaker A:Who cares?
Speaker A:So when I was at mri, I mean, that phone system was literally a year old and I was alive.
Speaker A:It was the old peach phones or blinking lights on them.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:I mean, it was old thermal fax paper.
Speaker A:I mean, there was no, there was.
Speaker A:I'm not even sure we had, I don't think we had email back then.
Speaker A:I had the first computer in all of MRI, Boston, New England, out of 77 people.
Speaker A:I went and bought it myself.
Speaker A:It was, it was crazy.
Speaker A:There's orange shag carpeting in this place.
Speaker A:It was great.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:No, but your question is just a grid and tenacity like any sales guy needs.
Speaker A:If you, you know, if you're just gonna let other people control you, control your destiny.
Speaker A:I mean, pardon the French, but you're, you're, you're screwed.
Speaker A:You know, you're in sales for a reason and it's, you know, you can do it ethically and honestly and nicely, but you gotta, you gotta have the.
Speaker B:Drive and the hustle 100%.
Speaker B:Let me ask you, because I think probably a lot of people, not just recruitment, but sales in general, right?
Speaker B:Everyone knows anyone in sales.
Speaker B:Whereas thinking about getting sales expects the first year to be on the phone a lot, and then a lot of people expect that as they get more and more skilled, they'll be on the phone less.
Speaker B:What does, if you don't mind sharing, what does your, like, activity look like now?
Speaker B:20, 30 years into it?
Speaker B:Are you still doing, Are you still on the phone all day?
Speaker B:What does that look like all day?
Speaker A:Baby, it's, that's where the money is.
Speaker A:I mean, my best years, like everyone in recruiting, 21, 22, 23, were some of the best years in the history of recruiting, right?
Speaker A:I mean, those years, I mean, I literally averaged more than a deal a week for two and a half years.
Speaker A:At the executive level, it was bananas.
Speaker A:And even now, I mean, like, I probably have, you know, 10, 12, 15 scheduled calls a day and then, which I don't generally think is a lot.
Speaker A:And I tell people and they're like that's a lot.
Speaker A:It still leaves open time in the day and you know, there's no good open time in the day like 9 to 5, 8 to 5.
Speaker A:I mean you just should be banging on the phones everything else you do for your sale.
Speaker A:If you're not, you know, you shouldn't be planning during the day, you shouldn't be doing research during the day.
Speaker A:So I mean I, I mean when I go look at my logs the end of the end of the year, I mean I'm generally average about four and a half, five and a half, even six hours of phone time, you know, solid phone time per day.
Speaker A:So I mean I, I just don't understand what people do if they're not on the phone.
Speaker A:I mean so my goal is to make a million bucks every year and it ain't going to happen by making 10 calls.
Speaker B:So how many, how many, how many cold calls would you say you make on average a day?
Speaker A:Oh God, I mean I have lists already pre done that I, you know, people I'm going to call tomorrow, I mean they're all, I mean 50 to 100 plus people long and then, and.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:And again obviously day to day seasons results will change.
Speaker B:But if you were to say on average how many people actually pick up.
Speaker A:It's a good question.
Speaker A:That's a very good question.
Speaker A:Enough that it makes it to worth doing, I guess.
Speaker A:I mean let's not going to tell you it's like 90%.
Speaker A:It is far from that, you know, but it's, you know, I can send an email out.
Speaker A:I mean don't forget everyone I, I, my process, I'm emailing to like say Sunday night calling you on Monday.
Speaker A:So they're going to hear and see my name twice.
Speaker A:If I get, if I get their phone, I'm going to leave a quick voicemail that says hey, check your email.
Speaker A:You know, and then I'll probably send them a text as well.
Speaker A:Say hey, I just, I don't know if you got my, my email and everything goes to spam nowadays.
Speaker A:But hey, take a look for this email address in there, something you may be interested in or something like that.
Speaker A:But you know, I don't even, I don't know, I mean I get a lot of people to pick up but you know, a lot of my calls, they're, they're not necessarily cold anymore because I've, you know, I'm maxed out on LinkedIn connections even.
Speaker A:I've got 30,000 first level connections and like 34,000 followers.
Speaker A:So if you're in the sales world, you know, I've probably touched you something.
Speaker B:You've heard of Rich?
Speaker B:You do sales in ZAs?
Speaker B:You know rich?
Speaker A:Yeah, like, like I'm on the board of the Pinnacle Society, which is like the top, you know, it's like, it's the top 80, 80 recruiters in the country, essentially.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You know, it's a great org.
Speaker A:It's like literally the best group I've ever been a part of.
Speaker A:A lot of learning, a lot of fun.
Speaker A:We have conferences twice a year.
Speaker A:And I just remember being at a bar at one of these conferences and this guy told me his name.
Speaker A:I'm like.
Speaker A:And it was an odd name.
Speaker A:And I'm like, dude, you sound familiar, man.
Speaker A:I know I've talked to you and it's just literally random at this bar in our hotel.
Speaker A:And I pull up my phone, I'm like, dude, we just talked two weeks ago.
Speaker A:You know, you were at Company X Z.
Speaker A:You know, it's like.
Speaker A:So it was.
Speaker A:I ended up placing the guy literally a month later.
Speaker A:It's great actually.
Speaker B:But okay, I have, I have, I have two questions.
Speaker B:One question I really want to ask one more before I move on into that about, about phones and calling is do you think part of the, the success you have with, with recruitment and calling is based on who you're working with, which is salespeople?
Speaker B:Do you think that the type of person you're calling affects their receptiveness to certain forms of outreach?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I mean, yes and no.
Speaker A:I mean, I, I don't think it hurts it, that's for sure.
Speaker A:But I think, you know, sales guys are busy.
Speaker A:They know with all the games already, they know the bullshit, they know the, they know when you're just trying to pitch them or you're doing whatever.
Speaker A:So in some ways it's a little harder actually, because sales guys hate being sold.
Speaker A:You know, if I sell an accountant, you know, and I placed other folks outside of salespeople, I've done nursing homes and directors and, you know, even architects and even a, you know, side lifting tow truck company executive actually once, like, all different, different stuff.
Speaker A:So I think, honestly I run a class on like Thursday mornings too, to teach people how to, you know, get them out of their problems for recruiting.
Speaker A:And honestly, it works for everything.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:People just want to make excuses.
Speaker A:They, this, this field's easier.
Speaker A:That field's easier.
Speaker A:You know, this depending on, there's certain industries that are going to have to make certain adjustments to.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day, you know, listen, every, it works.
Speaker A:People want to make excuses because it's hard and people don't teach it because they suck at it and they don't want to do it.
Speaker A:And I got to tell you, listen, I, not every call I make is a great call, but I can tell you right Now, I've got 20 openings on my desk right now for sales leaders and sales reps and account managers.
Speaker A:And I would tell you 12 of those are from cold calls and that's all in the last 30 days.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And each deal represents about 40 to 50 plus thousand dollar fees.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I don't know, cold calling seems to work for me, so I guess so.
Speaker B:And I guess on that, that actually transitions into, into I'm going to go deep really quick for you.
Speaker B:Like, but that transit, you've got 20 deals on your plate right now that you said are just in the past month.
Speaker B:You mentioned that, you know, you, you, you were part of the founding team for like Cornerstone and you, you'd done the big thing before and now you're working on yourself.
Speaker B:Why did you scale back and why don't you scale up and grow again?
Speaker A:I've never had a big team.
Speaker A:Most I've ever had is like one or two people work for me like as a recruiter and an admin.
Speaker A:Because honestly I just, it's just easier doing it yourself.
Speaker A:I'm not a great manager, I don't think, because I expect too much from people and I don't mind putting in the hours I like, I, you know, I literally go to the gym at six in the morning, get on the phones by, you know, go pick it back by 8.
Speaker A: d watch TV with my wife until: Speaker A:And then rinse, wash, repeat, you know, go play pickleball maybe once a week or go play poker.
Speaker A:You golf in the summer.
Speaker A:I mean it's, it's a, you know, you just got to get in the cycle.
Speaker A:It's just like training for anything else you do.
Speaker A:You know, people don't want, people don't want to put the hard work in.
Speaker A:You know, that's, that's, that's what, really, what it comes down to.
Speaker B:And, and I'll avoid opening that whole can of what are we going to do about Gen Alpha?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:Oh, God, yeah, dude, it's, it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a real problem.
Speaker A:I got to tell you, obviously, you've.
Speaker B:Obviously cracked your own personal code to success, and I'd love to know what is, what does success mean to you?
Speaker B:You've kind of explained what it looks like, but, like, what does all of this mean for you?
Speaker A:Like, for me, it's all about just financial freedom.
Speaker A:I mean, once you have enough money, you can.
Speaker A:You get better at whatever you want to do because you don't have to take on the crappy, in my case, a crappy search.
Speaker A:Like, we probably take, my wife and I, we probably take three months vacation a year, you know, travel all over the world and don't really have to worry.
Speaker A:We're building a house down south.
Speaker A:You know, the kids are in college and they're, you know, got what they need, right?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:To me, just having that financial freedom to me is massive because I am a massive fear of, fear of failure kind of guy.
Speaker A:Like, I never, you know, like when I'm training and coaching other people, it's.
Speaker A:I'm never like, hey, this is the only way to do it.
Speaker A:I'm like, there's a million ways to do things, but here's the grand foundation.
Speaker A:You can make it your own if you want to put the time and the effort into it.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, I'm all, I'm a lifelong learner.
Speaker A:So, you know, if you don't mind.
Speaker B:Me asking, what was that number that represented financial freedom?
Speaker B:Like, where?
Speaker B:What, what?
Speaker B:Or was there a point where you're like, okay, I've done it.
Speaker B:Like, I've, I've hit the map.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:And then the mark moves, and then the mark moves again.
Speaker A:And every time I think I'm there, the mark keeps moving.
Speaker A:But I've kind of come to the realization that I don't need to worry.
Speaker A:But it's funny because this is a super favorite topic of mine.
Speaker A:Being an old broker, I love money conversations.
Speaker A:The retirement number to me is.
Speaker A:I ask my clients as candidate candidates all this question all the time too.
Speaker A:But it's funny, my kids are both at University of Wisconsin.
Speaker A:To their group of friends that they've made there, we're the poor people, you know, so it's like my neighborhood where I live, you know, we're probably one of the poorest people on the street in our cul de sac.
Speaker A:I mean, there's just like, I have got, you know, Fortune, Fortune 10 CROs CROs in our street.
Speaker A:Head of a, you know, tier one large, you know, VC firm at the end of my street.
Speaker A:I mean, there's Guy, one of my neighbors, just sold his company for $13 billion.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, his second company, he's taken public and sold, you know, so, you know, it's all relative, right?
Speaker A:If you, you know, I'm a big fan of the, you know, the number five.
Speaker A:Like, you're the average of the five people you hang around the most.
Speaker A:You hang out with five losers.
Speaker A:Well, you're probably going to be a loser.
Speaker A:You hang out with five, you know, billionaires.
Speaker A:Chances are you're going to probably become a billionaire one way or another, you know, and that's what you get.
Speaker A:You gotta, you gotta put yourself in the right circles.
Speaker B:Well, so that brings up another question though, is when you're just getting, let's say, not just getting started with your career, but when you're trying to start elevating, right?
Speaker B:When you're putting the work in and you're trying to get up there, how do you first make that branch or that breakthrough into that one circle above you?
Speaker B:How do you, how did you find those first five people that were going to then bring you up into the next level?
Speaker A:It just kind of happens organically, to be honest with you, because, you know, I think one, if you want to get involved in your industry, you're going to, you know, you get involved.
Speaker A:Like, if you want to be part.
Speaker A:I've already teaches my kids too.
Speaker A:If you're going to be, if you're going to be part of something, be part of it.
Speaker A:Don't just be a bump on the log.
Speaker A:Like, get involved with committees.
Speaker A:Be part, you know, you know, take some ownership of something and then you get to be known and then you get to be a trusted advisor.
Speaker A:You get to be trusted.
Speaker A:You get to get brought into that next level of circle.
Speaker A:But when you're just sitting, you know, joining a group is great.
Speaker A:It's a great start.
Speaker A:But if you're just the guy sitting in the back of the bus not doing anything, I mean, like, who the hell cares?
Speaker A:Why'd you join?
Speaker A:Like, be a giver.
Speaker A:Like, I just, I hate, I hate takers.
Speaker A:Like, I do podcasts all the time, run this group on Thursday mornings and stuff.
Speaker A:And I, you know, big following on Facebook for recruiters and stuff, because I give out a ton of info.
Speaker A:Like, I don't, I don't Think I know all the answers.
Speaker A:But here's what I, you know, generally, you know, believe.
Speaker A:And I think you, you add an opinion, you add an.
Speaker A:You got to have a point of view and an opinion to something, right?
Speaker A:You just can't.
Speaker A:You gotta be a giver, you know, in this business especially, I think once you've been successful, you know, you can give back and try to make the industry better.
Speaker A:Like, recruiting's got a shitty name, quite frankly, you know, and it shouldn't because it's literally, it's a great profession that people just take for granted.
Speaker A:Like, I talk to a lot of venture capital companies now and I'm like, use me as a resource.
Speaker A:I'm like, I know everything about these companies.
Speaker A:You're either trying to buy, you want to buy, or you want to, you know, you want to invest in or whatever it may be.
Speaker A:I can tell you a lot more.
Speaker A:Just like when I was a broker, I can tell you a lot more from what the sales guys were telling me than what the finance guy was telling me.
Speaker A:You know, like, it's.
Speaker A:Things become very transparent when you get enough, enough voices coming to you and you're getting.
Speaker A:You can build a better picture than just, here's the numbers.
Speaker A:But if I'm talking to 10 sales reps and the finance guy, wow, that's generally becomes a pretty telling story, right?
Speaker A:So, I mean, I think recruiters are a very underutilized resource.
Speaker A:It's too bad.
Speaker A:Which is too bad.
Speaker B:I mean, I absolutely agree.
Speaker B:I got into recruitment not knowing anything about recruitment.
Speaker B:I started in Japan, which is a totally unique beast when it comes to recruitment methodology and people's attitudes.
Speaker B:But I came with no preconceptions because I didn't know anything about it.
Speaker B:But as I've grown into it and built my own career, something I always wondered is, why are people so reactive to recruiters?
Speaker B:I'm like, if someone called me and said, I'm a recruiter and I'm going to help you make another $50,000 in a better environment with better people, and it's going to give you more freedom, more financial strength and more options later in your life, I would never be upset.
Speaker A:I'm with you.
Speaker A:I never understood it, but I think the real reason is I didn't know a whole lot about recruiting when I got into either.
Speaker A:I had a buddy's dad who had a recruiting business, like 30 years when I was like three.
Speaker A:You know, it's about all I knew.
Speaker A:But I agree.
Speaker A:But I think the problem is most recruiters are just Aren't good, they're lazy.
Speaker A:They don't take, they don't, they don't take pride in their work.
Speaker A:And they just like, they're like, oh, you talk to me, great, let me send you out.
Speaker A:You know, like, if I send a resume out, I, I'm like, literally 99.9% of resumes I've sent out in the last 10 years resulted in an interview.
Speaker A:It is rare I send guys out that work.
Speaker A:I mean, I just got a call this morning from a guy that I placed last year.
Speaker A:He wanted to let me know that he was the number one rep.
Speaker A:Did 430% of his number, closed the biggest deal in the company's history in his first year.
Speaker A:I love those stories.
Speaker A:Tableau I built, if you don't familiar with anyone, it's really Tableau Software.
Speaker A:It's one of the most successful software companies ever.
Speaker A:The company got sold for $15 billion.
Speaker A:And I put many of those top sales reps and sales leaders in place and, you know, made, you know, probably 40 millionaires from that company alone.
Speaker A:You know, I think I placed like 60 people over there over the years.
Speaker A:And it's like, you know, but working for like anything you do, whether it's recruiting or whatever you're selling or doing, you work for good people, good companies, and life becomes a lot easier than just working on dogs.
Speaker A:You know, it's the kind of like the busy versus productive kind of mentality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And I think, though, I also think that what you mentioned could apply probably to almost all sales related positions, which is, and it's the difference between what, what I like to call like transactional sales and transformative sales.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And this is, I think a lot of people, not just recruiters, but salespeople, get a bad name simply because they're transactional, you know, but they don't.
Speaker A:Yeah, they don't have the long term game.
Speaker A:They don't look at it as, hey, you should be a teacher.
Speaker A:Like sales guys should be, should be the, you know, they should be the smartest guy in the room on that particular product, you know, not the smartest guy in the room in general.
Speaker A:But I should be able to teach you something, you know, and you know, and if I can't, you probably don't have that bigger pain with this issue or I didn't do a good job at lightening why you do have a pain.
Speaker A:You don't even realize it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And that's what sales guys, good sales guys do.
Speaker A:They're not afraid to pick up the phone.
Speaker A:They're not afraid to, you know, get to a no fast.
Speaker A:Everyone's so worried about getting to a yes.
Speaker A:Well, I'd rather get to a no pretty quickly.
Speaker A:It says, yeah, you have no budget.
Speaker A:We're never buying this for the next 30 years, and our house could be on fire.
Speaker A:I still don't need whatever you're selling.
Speaker A:Okay, that's great.
Speaker A:Then string me along for six months with the yeses.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, we can do it.
Speaker A:We can do it.
Speaker A:We can.
Speaker A:Yeah, we never really wanted this.
Speaker A:Like, ask the tough questions up front and, you know, get out of there.
Speaker A:Move on to a real business, a real pro, a real something that can really use you or appreciate you.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it kind of reminds me of something my.
Speaker B:My business partner used to say quite often when we.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We get a lot of actually sales guys in our fitness programs, not surprisingly, and they would obviously give love to give us lots of sales resistance.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, I know.
Speaker B:I know what you're doing.
Speaker B:I know what you're doing.
Speaker B:You're trying to sell me.
Speaker B:And my.
Speaker B:My business partner, I don't remember how the.
Speaker B:The full story, but he had a great way of explaining it of something like, yeah, because you're a.
Speaker B:I love talking to people like you because you understand, just as I do, that salespeople are leaders.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And my job is to lead you to the solution that's best for what you need.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And this would land every single time you get on a call with a salesperson.
Speaker B:And there was.
Speaker B:There was a little bit more.
Speaker B:I think he would, you know, he would.
Speaker B:He would personalize it to them and have a real conversation, but then it was just like.
Speaker B:And obviously that doesn't work unless you've developed trust and rapport and everything.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But every single time.
Speaker B:It's like sales is about leading and educating.
Speaker B:It's not about selling.
Speaker B:People want to buy, they just don't want to be sold.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:But here's the.
Speaker B:You mentioned something very interesting, which is you much rather get a no right than have someone string you on.
Speaker B:Have you found or have you noticed any patterns with some type of people that within sales being more likely to string you on versus give you a clear answer.
Speaker B:I've noticed, surprisingly, that salespeople will often string you on even though they hate it when it happens to them.
Speaker B:And I was wondering if you.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, they absolutely do, because a lot of them don't want to.
Speaker A:They think they're trying to help you out, and they're really not.
Speaker A:It's like, you Know, I mean, I, I now, I mean, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm extraordinarily blunt generally.
Speaker A:My conversations, like, I like, like anyone that's ever met me or knows me, whether real life or work.
Speaker A:I am.
Speaker A:I super authentic.
Speaker A:There's not a lot of false bravado, and there's not a lot of bullshit.
Speaker A:It's like, hey, this is what we're doing.
Speaker A:This is what, you know.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:No, I'm okay, but, you know, you're going to know.
Speaker A:Like, my candidates and clients, they know where they stand.
Speaker A:I want to know where I stand.
Speaker A:If you don't like me, great, let me know.
Speaker A:You know, if you do like me, great, let me know.
Speaker A:I love to hear that, too.
Speaker A:But it's like, candidates, like, I just call right before this guy, you know, thought he was his hotshot exec, and I'm like, dude, you're not a fit for this job.
Speaker A:I'm like, you're just fishing for company information for a competitor.
Speaker A:He's like, oh, no, no, no.
Speaker A:I'm like, you're literally doing the wrong job that we're recruiting for.
Speaker A:Not even, you know, it's the other end of the spectrum for a sales role.
Speaker A:And I'm like.
Speaker A:He's like, no, I really, I can.
Speaker A:I did it the last two years.
Speaker A:I'm like, you really haven't.
Speaker A:You know, but he, you know, I'm just like, you want me to put your resume forward?
Speaker A:You want to send me your resume?
Speaker A:He's like, oh, I don't want to do that yet.
Speaker A:I'm like, you just.
Speaker A:He was just kicking tires, wants to play the games.
Speaker A:And, like, you know, it just, it was stuff like that that you get.
Speaker A:You get a lot of that garbage, but a lot of recruiters, super excited, and they get the happy years, and they want to send people forward just because they said they could.
Speaker A:And on paper, the guy, you could bullshit its way through, but ultimately the guy was never getting that job, you know, so why, why waste your time always for the now?
Speaker B:And why waste your client's time?
Speaker A:Oh, that's even more.
Speaker A:And that's, again, that's why recruiters have a bad rap, you know, because they, they don't value their own time, let alone anyone else's.
Speaker A:So to me, I.
Speaker A:And this will sound super obnoxious probably to people, but it's like, you can.
Speaker A:I know I'm going to make more money than most of my clients do, you know, so technically, my time is essentially more valuable.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's, you know, I mean, it's not to be a jerk, but it's like I only want to work with people that are serious.
Speaker A:And if you're serious, man, I'm your best friend.
Speaker A:If you're going to waste my time, I'm not, I'm not going to be your best friend.
Speaker A:I'm going to be bugging you every day saying, why aren't we doing this?
Speaker A:Why aren't we doing this?
Speaker A:And you're probably get pissed at me, but at that point I have to lose.
Speaker A:Nothing was getting done, there was no communication.
Speaker A:And you know, so, you know, those that are serious love me.
Speaker A:Those who aren't generally don't.
Speaker A:When it comes to hiring no.
Speaker B:100, a really close friend from Japan of mine, actually Benji, a guy who named Benji used to always, he always said this because he does sales for fitness as well.
Speaker B:And he's always like, you know, you can lead a horse to water, water, but at the end of the day, you know, and I, I get that a lot.
Speaker B:This is very prevalent and I know we're coming to the end of our time, but this was very prevalent in Japan where salaries are incredibly low.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because Japan is, is, it's an, it's employment for life.
Speaker B:Very, very much salary focused, not heavy, bonus focused.
Speaker B:And so we would do, I would do executive search and you get, you get executives, you know, getting job offers for the equivalent of, you know, 120, 150,000 USD.
Speaker B:And they come in and they're, you know, and they're experienced and they're very knowledgeable.
Speaker B:And I was like a 28 year old kid, so sure they knew a lot more than me, but they'd be like, I make so much money.
Speaker B:This is this crazy.
Speaker B:Like you don't make that much money.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're an incredible person.
Speaker B:You have a lot of knowledge, you bring a ton of value to the table, but you do not make more money.
Speaker B:Like you make less money than I do.
Speaker B:So exactly like I'm here helping you.
Speaker B:Whatever frustration you have, take it out on society.
Speaker A:Not me.
Speaker A:I had a candidate like that once.
Speaker A:The guy, he's now become a client of mine later on in life.
Speaker A:But he just, I told him I had this role, I was paying 180.
Speaker A:He's like, you know, the, I think, I can't, I think at the time The OTE was 180.
Speaker A:It's a long time ago.
Speaker A:And he's like, he thought I was lying.
Speaker A:I'm like, you're in New York City, dude.
Speaker A:I'm like, you can't Live I lost, you know, basically less than this.
Speaker A:And he thought, he literally for a year he thought I was like just a lying piece of garbage.
Speaker A:Like there's no way someone's going to make money.
Speaker A:They're making that much money.
Speaker A:And then, you know, I'd keep calling because he was a good, he actually, he was a good gritty hustler.
Speaker A:You know, ended up becoming a VP of sales and a client.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:And I remind him of that story all the time because he's like, no, no one's ever making like a 180.
Speaker A:I forget what was a base or OT whatever it was at the time.
Speaker A:But he just could not believe it.
Speaker A:He thought he couldn't believe.
Speaker A:He was just so embarrassed under, under paid he was being at his company.
Speaker A:It's really what it amounted to.
Speaker B:But and that actually brings me to my, my last, last point and kind of question which is how do you deal with.
Speaker B:And I've noticed this a lot in America, people's resistance and hesitance to talk about money.
Speaker B:And I know you mentioned you love talking about.
Speaker B:And, and it always has blown my mind since coming back to the States that people are very, very like either it's a combination of insecure or they don't want to brag, but people don't talk about money.
Speaker B:And I feel like they're missing out on an opportunity to share.
Speaker B:It's like it's, it's you.
Speaker B:If you don't have data, you have nothing to compare.
Speaker B:But maybe you could enlighten, enlighten people a little bit.
Speaker B:Like what's, what's going on with all of that and what can you better.
Speaker A:Yeah, I, I listen.
Speaker A:I think I, I look at it as, listen, you know, you don't need to put it on a podcast.
Speaker A:Hey, you make this much or whatever.
Speaker A:But you know, if you're talking to friends or just on a phone call, I'm like, it's just interesting to understand like what's the, I'm so curious on what the number is people need for retirement.
Speaker A:And I've asked this question to Kans all the time because you know, guys have gotten to know even some just on a first call.
Speaker A:Just like I'm just curious.
Speaker A:I mean, you're saying you're near the end.
Speaker A:What's that look like?
Speaker A:You know, and I've literally gotten answers where some it's a million bucks, some it's $50 million.
Speaker A:You know, you know, and it, but it depends on where you are and what scale you are.
Speaker A:The guy that gave me, the 50 million.
Speaker A:He's gone through a couple of monster exits, you know, it's probably attainable for him, you know, so it's, you know, I mean, he's got absolutely nothing to worry about in life, and his kids probably have nothing to worry about in life, and his grandkids probably have nothing to worry about, you know, but it's.
Speaker A:But everyone's got a different sense of security, what you need, you know, So I, But I do.
Speaker A:I find the whole conversation interesting.
Speaker A:And the fact that people are so nervous to let anyone else know what they make, I find kind of comical because the people that you're going to hang out with anyway, they're not going to really expect you to pay their mortgage or buy them lunch, you know, I mean, and if they are, then you're probably hanging out with the wrong people.
Speaker A:So, you know, I mean, again, it comes back to the five you hang out with.
Speaker A:I mean, you hang around the people that are going to treat you well.
Speaker A:And once you're part of that group, want to elevate you, not pull you down.
Speaker A:The guy that wants to expects you to buy them lunch because you make, you know, more than them.
Speaker A:Probably not the person you have to be hanging out with, probably, you know, So I don't know, I figure if you're not paying my mortgage, I'm not paying yours, you're not paying mine, so who really cares?
Speaker A:You know, it's like, it's just.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I don't know, I find it.
Speaker A:I'm fascinated by how people make it, how they spend it, how they save it.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's a very interesting topic.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I think, I mean, I think it should become much more.
Speaker B:The more people talk about it, the less secrets there are, the more power we have, right?
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker B:The day.
Speaker B:If you don't know what the market is doing, what other people are earning, you have no way to know your own value, you know, that's it.
Speaker A:Well, it's like, don't you.
Speaker A:Aren't you curious?
Speaker A:Like, when you retire, it's like, hey, what do I need?
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:This guy did it on 500 grand.
Speaker A:This guy did it on 10 million.
Speaker A:They look like they're living the same life, and you know who's right or who's wrong, and it comes down to how you spend it and everything else.
Speaker A:So it's like, you know, it's like I said, like for kids.
Speaker A:My.
Speaker A:The people my kids hang out with, we're the poor people.
Speaker A:They know at the end of the.
Speaker B:Day it is, it is all subjective.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because everyone lives differently in different places.
Speaker B:But anyways, thanks again, Rich for joining so much.
Speaker B:You've got.
Speaker B:This has been a really interesting episode.
Speaker B:I hope, I hope we get some people listening that are actually like somewhat knowledgeable of recruitment and can resonate with some of our guys.
Speaker A:But maybe you get some good sales guys.
Speaker A:For me, you never know.
Speaker A:Software sales guys.
Speaker B:Well, well on that, just to wrap up, why don't you share a little bit like, you know, what would you like to say to listeners who do you help?
Speaker B:If they haven't figured it out yet, how can they get in touch with you?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a great question, Mike.
Speaker A:The, the best way to get in touch with me is through email because link.
Speaker A:You know, send a.
Speaker A:Send.
Speaker A:If you're looking for jobs and your experienced, you know, sales rep who hasn't changed jobs every six weeks, you know, you can send me a, send me an email, you know, to rich@cornerstonesearch.com My LinkedIn is maxed out.
Speaker A:You can go there and follow me is the best thing to do.
Speaker A:But I'm always trying to remove old folks that are no longer in sales.
Speaker A:But you can find me on LinkedIn for Rich Rose and at Cornerstone Search, my website.
Speaker A:Obviously cornerstonesearch.com that's the best stuff.
Speaker A:But yeah, listen, I mean if clients are looking to hire, build a top grade A team, I'd love to talk to you.
Speaker A:If I can help you in your own search, let me know.
Speaker A:You know, all we do is focus on software sales reps and execs, so.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, everyone listening.
Speaker B:If you're hiring tech sales for SaaS, Rich is the guy to reach out.
Speaker B: , you said, or: Speaker A:I've, I've been the top 50 for the last five years.
Speaker A:The new one comes out in a couple months so.
Speaker A:Yeah, there we go.
Speaker A:Not bad for a solo recruiter.
Speaker A: d, I think I've placed almost: Speaker A:So yeah, a lot of people.
Speaker B:That is a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
